Community RPG Project Idea

[Rainyday]

Here's an idea.

If you've played games like VH or RyonaRPG before, then maybe you've heard about the method their development uses: Apache Subversion.
I'm no expert but basically it means that the main copy is kept on a server and everyone's individual copies are constantly updated to match it, and their own changes are also sent to the central server and things.

To put it simply, everyone can work on it at the same time almost whenever they want.

I was wondering how much interest the forum as a whole would have to contribute to something like this.
I could help with the art, but for obvious reasons I shouldn't commit a significant amount of my time to yet another project in addition to what I'm already working on, so it's not something I'd be able to carry by myself.

There's no maximum or minimum limit to participation.
All you need is:
-Simple RPG Maker proficiency (Extremely easy to learn, like 10-30 minutes easy for the basics)
-Ideas
-Time


Any discussion or feedback at all is welcome, from thoughts about the process to ideas about the game itself. I just want to see how much interest there is.
Note both RyonaRPG and VH take place in high fantasy world settings, and in a way that's suited to the development because it means a wide variety of different areas where anything can happen.

On the other hand I've got some leftover resources from an indefinite hiatus smaller omo game that takes place in a modern-day city, so that might work too.

Discuss away, hopefully. Even posts saying 'I don't know much about what I'll be able to do but if I can help I'll try' are reassuring.

Links:
Everything you need about RPG Maker VX Ace
(RPG Maker XP is an option too, though)

[Lisk]

Actually, I've been thinking about a collaborative project before. Many of us have started fiddling with some things only to abandon them later, an open project might tie them up together. I've been doing some mapping just for the sake of trying some things and after fiddling with the scripts and event trees of some certain japanese developers I consider myself pretty experienced with the engine itself. Things that would die by themselves may thrive as a part of something. The most troubling part is time, as always, but if things go well, I will have more of it soon.

[Drying]

I'm an expert on Subversion (SVN) but not on RPG Maker.
Version management tools (Subversion, Git, Mercurial, ...) are mostly effective for plain text files.
The reason for this is that they enable people to work on the same files at the same time, and when the commit their changes to the repository, it automatically tries to merge them, line by line. If it can not, it is necessary to do this by hand.
Furthermore, you may make so-called feature branches, in order to extend parts without interfering with other developers, possibly temporarily breaking everything.
I think this is not a feasible thing to do with binary files though.

So version management may not be very handy, but I suppose it is better than nothing.

In RPG Maker, I think you have a lot of small binary files (maps, sprites, ...) so I think you should be fine, as long as you don't work on the same items.

If this takes off I guess I could help a bit with the technical side of things, although I know next to nothing about RPG Maker.
And time I have very little off, sadly.

[Kyrieelleison]

When it comes to RPG maker, I've made games before and I am able to do rather simple scripted events and such, so I would be able to help in any way I can. This seems like a cool idea, and a distraction from the game I've been neglected for almost a year.

[Rainyday]

I'm an expert on Subversion (SVN) but not on RPG Maker.
Version management tools (Subversion, Git, Mercurial, ...) are mostly effective for plain text files.
The reason for this is that they enable people to work on the same files at the same time, and when the commit their changes to the repository, it automatically tries to merge them, line by line. If it can not, it is necessary to do this by hand.
Furthermore, you may make so-called feature branches, in order to extend parts without interfering with other developers, possibly temporarily breaking everything.
I think this is not a feasible thing to do with binary files though.

So version management may not be very handy, but I suppose it is better than nothing.

In RPG Maker, I think you have a lot of small binary files (maps, sprites, ...) so I think you should be fine, as long as you don't work on the same items.

If this takes off I guess I could help a bit with the technical side of things, although I know next to nothing about RPG Maker.
And time I have very little off, sadly.

Oh, it's good that we've got someone who could help with that side of things.

RPG Maker might not be as suited for SVN as plaintext, but as mentioned, seeing how there are at least two massive community RPGs japan is successfully working on using SVN, I imagine it at least wouldn't be a complete mess.

[Tru]

I've been told that Git is better than SVN because with Git the guy who runs the central server can't run off with the whole project history, and you don't have to trust any one person to be the gatekeeper. I've used Git a little bit, and it's not too bad... But hell, if we're going through the trouble of using professional programmers tools like SVN or Git, why use RPG Maker if we can use PyGame or something? That way all those text-based version tools will be happy with the project.

Oh! Also I hear that GitHub is supposed to be really great for hosting Git projects. Haven't used it myself, though...

[Lisk]

RPG Maker combines the low entrance barrier of the editor itself with the flexibility of Ruby for the times when you need to do something more complex. Besides, Ruby and Python are very similar, so RPG Maker is the perfect median to unite people who are experienced in different areas. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. Besides, both SVN and Git allow you to enter comments to your updates, so I don't see a problem here either.

[Drying]

I've been told that Git is better than SVN because with Git the guy who runs the central server can't run off with the whole project history, and you don't have to trust any one person to be the gatekeeper. I've used Git a little bit, and it's not too bad... But hell, if we're going through the trouble of using professional programmers tools like SVN or Git, why use RPG Maker if we can use PyGame or something? That way all those text-based version tools will be happy with the project.

Oh! Also I hear that GitHub is supposed to be really great for hosting Git projects. Haven't used it myself, though...

I usually prefer Git over SVN, but it is terrible with binary files. Because everyone has all the history, you basically have all versions of all files.
This is okay for text files, because usually only a few lines change between versions, so the difference is next to nothing, and compressed it's completely fine to store an entire project. In binary files, changes are less local, and differences are generally not line-based. If the file is compressed (for example PNG) it is not unlikely that you will benefit from storing changed "lines", and further compression would not help. Therefore, I think your repository would easily get large.
A quick glance at the maps for an RMXP game tells me that the map files are not shaped like text.

If you want to use git, you can use git svn. This fetches the entire SVN repository into a local git repo, and allows you to use git locally, while committing to SVN.

[Tru]

By binary files do you mean images? Is SVN better at those? Do we even need to keep all the images in Git/SVN? It seems like we could use a communal Dropbox account or something for files that don't make sense to track using programming tools...

[EnragedFilia]

For this purpose, "binary file" means "anything that the subversion software can't isolate changes to". And since a RPG Maker project probably isn't organized into neatly-indexed little portions, that means the whole project. Custom images would actually be less problematic because you wouldn't be likely to have multiple users making repeated changes to the same image and then submitting it again.

On the other hand, the size of a RPG maker project is minuscule by the standards of file storage and transfer systems, so a subversion repository getting bloated with the entirety of every version ever committed isn't nearly as much of a problem as it might with other projects.

[Drying]

Thanks EnragedFilia, I'm terrible at explaining.

My size argument had more to do with Git actually, because for a single server to have a large repository would be okay.
For everyone, it might be annoying. But I haven't done any tests, so the storage requirements might be okay.

Checking out the "Data" directory for a large game, it turns out it is only 6 MiB. Even with 1000 revisions of every file, it should not be that bad I suppose, especially when compressed.
But I also noticed that common events are all stored in a single file, meaning that it's likely that only one person can edit them at a time. I don't know anything about RPG Maker, but I imagine these events are quite commonplace. Does anyone know how this is managed in existing projects?

[EnragedFilia]

But I also noticed that common events are all stored in a single file, meaning that it's likely that only one person can edit them at a time. I don't know anything about RPG Maker, but I imagine these events are quite commonplace. Does anyone know how this is managed in existing projects?

I've never heard of a subversion system that only allows one person to edit a given file at a time, and it seems like a very bad way to go about it. The usual mechanic is that any number of users can check out any file they want at once and edit the local copy freely, and simultaneous edits that lead to committing different versions have to be resolved manually afterwards.

More importantly, the design phase of any project would have to take place outside a subversion repository, because they're really only useful for a code base anyway.

[Rainyday]

More importantly, the design phase of any project would have to take place outside a subversion repository, because they're really only useful for a code base anyway.

It does make sense that if anything's going to happen we should get a rough idea of what it will be before we start.

I think the most important things to agree on are actually the characters and the setting/plot.

I'd say only having one or two main characters keeps things focused, because in projects like RyonaRPG where developers are allowed to add new characters whenever they want and there end up being fifty different playable heroines, the work is spread pretty thin between each one and it becomes a mess.

We should focus on one or two girls getting the majority of the content so that way they get a lot of it.

Next, a setting.
We don't need the fine details of the plot yet, just what sort of place it happens in.
Does it all take place in a modern city? Is it an adventure story where you can travel to different locations across a whole continent?

Fantasy is probably the easiest to get away with for two reasons:
1) RPG maker's default tilesets are much more suited to fantasy places
2) We can explain lots of things away with 'don't worry, it's magic'

But we shouldn't confine ourselves to that if we don't want to.


Any more thoughts on the matter?
(I'll also try to lurk in the #AGD channel on Rizon as much as I can and keep logs on discussion there - you can also access the room using the 'IRC Chat' link above)

[Drying]

I've never heard of a subversion system that only allows one person to edit a given file at a time, and it seems like a very bad way to go about it. The usual mechanic is that any number of users can check out any file they want at once and edit the local copy freely, and simultaneous edits that lead to committing different versions have to be resolved manually afterwards.

Exactly. And this resolving (merging) is not going to work unless your files are text-like, or your VCS is especially suited for your type of files (I think MS Office has some versioning tools built in).
It's kind of a pointless and off-topic discussion, so I think it would be best to leave it at this, and when/if actual production is started, just try and see how it goes.

Rainyday:
I'm terrible at stories, so I can't really do anything there. I agree with fantasy, for your second reason. We can get away with a lot, but putting magic in a world also gives the story a bit more freedom (since in a magic-filled world you can have any type of motive to your actions). Magic schools for girls seem to be a common setting, and I think it's great but not very original.
I don't have a real preference concerning the setting or story. But I'm interested in seeing an original idea.

[Ultima02]

I don't have a real preference concerning the setting or story. But I'm interested in seeing an original idea.

You could make it a story of these characters trying to save the world from 'certain' destruction at the hands of an evil overlord.
I realize this may have been done before!